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lewdvig
Stagiaire
Canada
1 Posts |
 Posted - 08/09/2007 : 22:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by KD teammate
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Thanks for putting this all together. This is one of the finest discussions on doping that I have ever seen. |
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sottas
Stagiaire
5 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 21:44:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Omland
KD,
You published a very interested document.
My only concern is that from your translation I understand that mr. Sottas is suggesting that they can �monitor� also for autologous blood transfusion: this is not actually possible.
Yes it is. Monitoring indirect markers of doping (HCT, HGB, OFF-score, ABPS) allows us to detect any manipulation of the erythropoeisis, autologous blood transfusion included.
funny that I came across this thread lol |
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sottas
Stagiaire
5 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 21:45:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Green Machine
Actually, the test is developed by a couple of researchers at Ume� University in Sweden. They have been funded by WADA to produce this test. The researchers said they have made great progress and that there won't be any problems developing a valid test, BUT that it probably won't be ready for another year.
No this is not the same test. |
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sottas
Stagiaire
5 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 21:48:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Quiche
But it kind of surprises me, that KD is refering to Sottas to state this fact, because that is exactly the point Damsgaard has made for a few years now. it's not a new Lausanne method, it's actually an old Bispebjerg method. But the important thing is, that it is the right way to do it.
no the method is significanlty different from what Rasmus did these last years. |
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sottas
Stagiaire
5 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 21:55:12
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quote:
Originally posted by KD teammate
In June 2006, doping scientist Rasmus Damsgaard confirmed to the Danish media, that he is also using a method to indicate use of autologous blood transfusion. I believe that he is using the same method from the Lausanne laboratorium, on the riders from Team CSC.
the method that we developed in Lausanne is significantly different from the method developed by Rasmus and his colleagues. Interestingly both methods can be combined together to detect efficiently any from of blood doping.
quote:
At this point of time, it seems like the method from Lausanne has an accuracy well above 90% (judging to the confident statements from Mr.Sottas)
No. Any specificity can be chosen, but the price to pay for a high specificity (eg 99.99% as you suggested) is a low sensitivity of the test. |
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sottas
Stagiaire
5 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 22:17:17
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quote:
Originally posted by KD teammate
Another important measure we havent discussed lately, is the need for all countries to implement effective Antidoping laws. Its evident that testing methods are important, but still they can not solve the entire problem when standing alone. In those cases where test methods are not good enough (or towards those diciplines where tests rarely are made), we simply need the police to be able to uncover doping use and doping trade!
The famous doping scientist Sandro Donati, has earlier suggested that the police should intensify their doping investigation to combat doping trade and doping use, and in 2006 Interpol opened a department for this purpose (working together with WADA). Just to illustrate the extend of the doping problem, I can tell you that Donati published a report in March 2007, where he estimated the number of world wide doping users, to be around 31 million people.
wow, you are well informed, do you work in the anti-doping field? lol
Indeed, it is highly probable that WADA will finance in the very new future a new project based on forensic investigations. |
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Green Machine
Hors Categorie
Sweden
2340 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 23:14:17
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| Sottas, if there is a working autologous blood transfusion test, why isn't it used? Why would WADA put money into research for an autologous blood doping test if one was already developed? |
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KD teammate
Hors Categorie
Denmark
5683 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2007 : 10:21:00
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Thanks a lot Sottas, for contributing to this forum and topic, with further clarifications about the "autologous blood doping test". A lot of us really appreciated your decision some months ago, to publish some overall information, that illustrated the development of the doping problem in Cycling in the last 10 years.
Personally I believe this kind of openness about the problem, really is also the key to solve the problem. I guess you all had some internal discussions about if it was a good/bad move to play with open cards. So I want you to know, that I really think you made the right decision. Furthermore I hope you will continue to publish the overall "suspicious" figures after some of the GTs. In the short run it might create some negative headlines in the press, but in the long run I believe it will help create the necessarry pressure, to get the attitudes changed, in countries like Spain and Portugal.
Two questions:
1) I had this idea, that UCI perhaps already in 2008 could use the screening methods for autologous blood doping. As far as I understood your statement, the method Damsgaard is working with can be combined with your method in Lausanne, and therby you will have a method with higher specificity and sensitivity. In case the specificity still wont be acceptable enough to qualify to become a validated doping test (at the required sensitivity level), then I had this idea, that perhaps UCI could choose to just make it a "health test" in 2008 (with lower demand for the needed specificity), instead of a traditional "doping test". This way it could function just like the blood screens for hematocrite levels, where the riders recieve 14 days health suspension, and then can return racing again, when their blood values return to normal. Do you know if that model is something, UCI perhaps would be ready to launch in 2008?
2) Can you tell more about your current work, with developing a validated doping test for autologous blood doping (time frames, etc)?
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Edited by - KD teammate on 04/10/2007 08:32:46 |
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DK-IT
National Champion
Italy
402 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2007 : 12:31:55
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Just to let the "writers" know, I find this topic very interesting, but has no contribution, beside this "show" of interest. 
--- Voigt for president ! --- |
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amartha
Elite Rider
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 02:40:18
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The new dope is Dynepo. The drug test for it has yet to get approval. Seems like the cheaters will always find something new to beat the lab tests. As long as the stakes are in the multi-millions of euros, there will be guys who think they will get away with doping.
BTW: I still think Landis was screwed by a gambler who had connections with the French lab and the techs broke security and poured synthetic testosterone into Landis's cup of pee.
A.M. |
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KD teammate
Hors Categorie
Denmark
5683 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 08:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by amartha
The new dope is Dynepo. The drug test for it has yet to get approval. Seems like the cheaters will always find something new to beat the lab tests. As long as the stakes are in the multi-millions of euros, there will be guys who think they will get away with doping.
The good news is, that they have already developed a test for Dynepo, and are currently working to validate it. Just like when NESP was invented, the test arrives "only" a couple of years later. The bad news is, that so far UCI has refused to implement retro active testing on old samples (only when the purpose is to do scientific work its allowed). In my opinion it would be appropriate if UCI decides that they can do doping tests on all old samples, as long as it is within the 8 year statute of limitations.
This way, it would be possible to bust all riders that are currently cheating with a substance, that only can be discovered in a year or two. And this way, most of the "evil" riders will probably stop experimenting with all the new substances.  |
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Culkasi
Hors Categorie
United Kingdom
4080 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 09:21:06
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quote:
Originally posted by amartha
BTW: I still think Landis was screwed by a gambler who had connections with the French lab and the techs broke security and poured synthetic testosterone into Landis's cup of pee.
A.M.
Was that before or after Tyler Hamilton was abducted by aliens that installed an unborn fedus of his twin inside his body?
Culkasi |
Edited by - Culkasi on 04/10/2007 09:23:16 |
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amartha
Elite Rider
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 03:18:58
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KD: This article is for you.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21195326/
The science keeps improving, but each year brings new cheating medicines and the false confidence that cheaters believe they'll get away with it because the tests cannot catch their drug. The multi-million euro stakes in cycling and in many other sports will perpetuate cheating.
The interesting fact brought out in this article is the duration that blood may be stored for use in transfusion.
A.M. |
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bikebye
Stagiaire
Italy
8 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 04:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by KD teammate
Another doping story from Jans Koerts
Koerts realised only in 1996, that most of the peleton in fact was riding on EPO. Earlier he had heard the rumour about Gewiss Ballan, and when suddenly these riders was loosing big time to riders from GB MG, then he got suspicious. He asked one of the well informed riders, about what was going on, and felt stupid when he realised, that he hadnt been aware himself until now (about the widespread EPO use). In 1997 UCI introduced the hematocrite level on 50, and since Koerts had a natural value around 49, he decided to go on, without the use of EPO. He was several times controled by the team doctor at Rabobank, and since his natural Hematocrite was quiet high, he each time recieved special salt tablets, to artificialy lower the value before the important official controls.
Only in 1999, Koerts is for the first time using EPO. He bought it from a Spanish pharmacy, when the team was on training camp. He found....
And if Koerts is telling the truth, then it was not all riders in the peleton, who knew about the widespread EPO use in 1993-1996!
Let me first make an introduction on myself.
In the late 80s'/early 90s I was a "Semi-pro" racer in Italy, in the region of Lombardy, that was a "hotspot" of Italian cycling and also a hotspot of doping affair.
In the mid 90s' I quit racing and started as coach/team manager for my old team.
The team was a "mid level" Under 23 team, acting as a "nursery" for an important Italian Pro team (to be found later to be involved in doping cases). Our team was not on any doping program, but some of the riders who where in the team in the 80s were caught as dopers many years later in their Pro career.
All this is to say that I personally knew many of the italian riders involved in doping affairs and that some of my training partners did not make any secret to use doping products (different based on the period).
Anyway....
Based on what I observed in those years, the widespread use of EPO started in 93/94. The synthetic EPO become easily available and even at Under 23 level, many major teams were on EPO.
This could have been easily understood by a "new racing tactic" by those team. For example, in 95/95 the Under 23 team subsidiary of Gewiss had a bunch of good riders who simply orchestrated a team time trial few Km from the start and left the peloton behind. They were able to make 100km alone in 3/4 riders and dispute the victory among themselves, while the peloton was chasing. Obviously they were of "another planet" ...
I also saw many major races won with long distance solo effort of 70/80 km runaway on a flat circuit!!! Never seen before in my life !!
The races were basically an affair disputed by those "special" teams, while the other racers had to settle for the "race for normals".
All this suddenly changed in 1997, after the introduction of the Hematoctrit level check...
the races went back to "normal", with the real decisive moves done in the final kms ... no more 100km escapades ... no more incredible performance by some teams only.
So I can hardly believe that Koerts (who was pro) did not know what was going on .... since the EPO was so widespread that tainted even juvenile races.
In a future post, I will perhaps add more about the individual stories of some Pro who was caught as a doper. It is very interesting to see how their career had crossed in one moment or another some "teacher" who probably introduced them to doping.
The main problem in today's cycling is that those "teachers" are all still around ... |
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KD teammate
Hors Categorie
Denmark
5683 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 12:32:08
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quote:
Originally posted by bikebye
In a future post, I will perhaps add more about the individual stories of some Pro who was caught as a doper. It is very interesting to see how their career had crossed in one moment or another some "teacher" who probably introduced them to doping. The main problem in today's cycling is that those "teachers" are all still around...
Thanks for your interesting post. Indeed it could be interesting to read your part 2 of the story. Even if your knowledge is only limited to what happened in Italy in mid 90s, its still very interesting to heer. Most of us are now aware, that doping was a "secret" part of the game for all professional riders in the 90s. We also know that ConConi and Ferrari was some of the keypersons in Italy. But still we dont know how the system exactly was organised? Who introduced the riders to doping products? And what was the role of the team management on most of the professional teams?
It would also be cool if you could name some specific cases, and draw some parallels as how it looks like today in Italy (from your point of view).  |
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Doping affairs in Cycling since 1980
