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bikebye
Stagiaire
Italy
8 Posts |
 Posted - 11/10/2007 : 04:21:12
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KD Teammate,
to reply to all your questions it would take several posts....!!!
This time I will limit myself to some of the issues raised.
First ...I propose you a "Game" ... take the Italian riders involved in doping cases. Since they are many, please limit yourselves to those coming from Lombardy/Piedmont + some russian riders who made Italy his second country (Berzin, Tonkov, etc).
Now list out all the teams they joined during their career (including amateur/junior period) and the team manager and assistant team manager at the time.
(I know that all this would be impossible without reading all the old issues of the FCI magazine "Tuttociclismo"....)
What you will discover is that all of them, sooner or later in their career, have raced for team A or B or C with Team Manager Mr X, Y, Z ... .
This to say that there are a relative small number of team/team managers who have always promoted doping in their teams and acted as "teachers" for many riders. The rider can later change team, but now he has all the skills to continue doping on his own.
The sad thing is that most of these Team Managers are all still around .... Doping will never eradicated if the UCI does not kick all these "old school" Managers out of the window and start with new fresh blood. It is very silly that a Doped rider get a 2-year ban, but his manager can walk away just throwing all the blame on the rider ...
Let's go back to the "way of introduction" to Doping...
In my personal observation, I noticed usual 2 patterns:
- "proactive team based mode": once the rider joins one of the teams that promoted doping, he is almost unavoidably involved. Since many of the team mates are "faster", he realizes soon that to stay int he team he must play under the same rules. The team provided relationship with physician and all the logistic support, etc.
Once you go through this "boarding school", you can move independently and contact doping sources and physicians on your own
in a later post, I will give examples of the teams that were good "school"
- "reactive - network": every rider has a network old team mates, masseurs, mechanics and especially training buds. Once you feel that without Doping you can not compete, you chat with one of them who has more experience on the subject and he could give you the right directions to Doctors or Pharmacies or else.
This obviously involves a high degree of mutual trust and confidence among the riders, but you can imagine that some of them know each other since school age.
I make a practical example: in the mid 90's a friend of mine was a keen triathlete, national level, but not a winner and did not have the talent to be a international level. He started to made his cycling training rides together with some experienced Pro (their names are unfortunately in your list of dopers...). He was suggested to take stimulants (amphetamines) to perform better in shorter races. He noted a considerable improvement in racing performance and planned to move to more sophisticated doping (EPO and testosterone), with the help and "advice" of the training buds. We close our relationship for some reason and I did not follow his career ... so I was totally astonished to read many years later that he made a podium position in the World Championship !!!!! |
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bikebye
Stagiaire
Italy
8 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 15:27:10
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some "bullet" news:
* Dr Ferrari was a very good triathlete in the early 80s. He won several national races (the sport was at the beginning in Italy). Dr Ferrari has a daughter (Sara Ferrari) who is an excellent marathoner with a PB of 2h29' at at very young age of 24. Later some injuries sidelined her for years.
* It was known that at the early stages of EPO doping, it was difficult to control the potential side effects. The riders of Gewiss were sleeping with a HR Monitor with TZ alarm, and if the HR dropped below a safety level during the night, they had a stationary bike in the bedroom to immediately start exercising
* How to mask doping and how to get framed: for a year, in early 90s, i had a team mate just back from a suspension for being caught on Nandrolone. He was very afflicted not really for the suspension, but because the Italian cycling federation "did frame" him: after a stint of preparation in altitude with tough training, he lost 3/4kgs of weight and very dehydrated. The FCI made a surprise doping test at the hotel before they were leaving for a international race. Because of the weight loss and dehydration, his T/E ratio was skewed and revealed (at the B sample), the presence of Nandrolone. The team mate was therefore sure that it was a move to exclude him from National team also in the future. (obviously his assumption was that he and the other national riders should have been on dope to compete, so was not really a feeling of being guilty)
* one of the team managers more involved in doping cases (Mr Piscina) was previously working in a hospital... |
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KD teammate
Hors Categorie
Denmark
5683 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 18:09:30
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Your stories are very interesting to read, bikebye. They confirm other rumours I have heard from other sources. Earlier I heard the rumour that Gewiss Ballan riders as standard had an alarm clock waking them up in the middle of the night, just to make sure the blood didnt cloat. I also heard the rumour, that when the hematocrite levels was introduced in 1997, many riders just started to inject salt water in the blood to artificialy lower the measured values (and by doing so they could have a 53 value but only get meassured to 49).
The story about "getting framed", remind me of the reaction from Pantani when he was pulled out of the Giro in 1999 with a too high Hematocrite. Back then he also believed someone framed him. Some years later in 2004 we had the "Oil for Drug" case, where Mazzolenis conversation with Santuccioni indicated, that there was a secret agreement between the doping testers and a large group of riders. Mazzoleni got scared in one occation because he hadnt been "warned" about the testing, but Santuccioni told him to relax, because when they only asked for "a small sample", they wouldnt really test it.
I dont really know the extend of that problem, and for how long and how many riders this corrupt testing system has worked in Italy. Somehow I believe the corrupt system slowly has changed since 1998, but I am interested to hear your personal opinion about that?
Then you shortly talked about Piscina. I know that Omar Piscina has recently been the manager of Team LPR and Tinkoff, but I guess you are refering to Ennio Piscina from the 90s. But can you help my memory a bit, to remember in what teams he was a sports manager?
Hope I am not asking too many questions, and that you get time to post more of your very interesting stories.  |
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bikebye
Stagiaire
Italy
8 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 10:14:24
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KD,
I decided to take part in this forum discussion because it is really one of the finest on the subject, putting the problem on historical perspective and without falling in the usual sterile discussions if Landis was doped or not, if Armstrong was doped or not ...
Since we know that "statistically" speaking, 80% of the Pro riders are doped, it is more intriguing to understand how we could come at such point.
You ask me about the change in 1998....
Well, it is very simple ... before the doping was an internal affair between the FCI/CONI and the athletes/teams. After the first actions from Judiciary and Police, there was not much room left to maneuver, even before the real Anti-Doping Law was issued in 2000
As you mentioned in your first post, the CONI/FCI had many skeletons in their cabinets. We can not forget that in the 100km Team Trial (basically a doping contest), Italy was able to outpace East Germany and USSR !!! The famous winner of Worlds/OG were much later being involved in doping affairs (the team was Giovannetti, Poli, Scirea, Vanzella, Bartalini, etc). Italy was winning at the same time at Elite TT and also the Juniores TT title ...
The apex of the FCI doping program was probably the U23 Worlds in Lugano, where Italy raced on his own (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th place).
Being on the National Team was not only a question of prestige, but a entry to a "top level" of doping program, with huge benefits also the the team during the normal season.
Obviously an athlete being in the National Team needed protection from doping tests also during his normal activities.
The doping tests were done by 2 labs belonging to CONI (!!), so we can imagine that the results were carefully adapted to the policy of CONI/FCI at the time.
A mechanic of the National Team also nonchalantly told me that all the specimen collected at the normal races were simply thrown away because the test was very expensive.
So the cosy relationship between CONI/FCI and the doping world made it possible for years to have positive doping tests only "on purpose".
It is not surprise that riders felt "framed" because it was basically true.
About Pantani's test in 99': the other riders who "survived" that dramatic test (Gotti and Savoldelli) and got into the podium actually had Hematocrit level of 49.5 and 50,2 !!! (source: Gazzetta dello Sport and other Cycling magazine of the time !!!). It is just a question of advance notice of few minutes to drink water or make serum injection in the blood to pass the test.
The Doping Agency probably decided that Pantani was the victim and went first in Pantani's hotel, sealing his fate.
read an interesting article from Donati. He is more focused on Athletics, but you just need to change the sport and you have the same picture.
http://www.playthegame.org/Home/Knowledge%20Bank/Articles/Anti_doping%20%20the%20Fraud%20Behind%20the%20Stage.aspx
Some other bullet news:
* IVAN GOTTI was weighting a mere 51Kg when turned professional. If I am not wrong, he got +4kg after joining Gewiss in 95 and started to win major race and got other 3/4Kg of muscles to win even more later in his career (he is reported at 58kg in 2001).
* our host Bjiarne Riis was reported to have lost 7kg in preparation of his Tour victory. At the time the news was considered as example of his dedication. To me, it looked very very strange that a very fit Pro Rider could lose 7kg of fat in natural way. |
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KD teammate
Hors Categorie
Denmark
5683 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 19:10:05
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The article from Donati is indeed very interesting. To be honest it was already one of my main sources, when I started to make further research about the doping problem in Cycling (and how it evolved). Our picture about the 90s are in small drops getting more and more clear. What pussels me a lot, is however to get a correct feeling of how the picture has changed now in 2007.
Of course I have some ideas and speculations, about the true role of different Italian institutions in 2007. But since I dont read Italian newspapers that much, its difficult to know how correct my view is. So I would also like to hear your opinion about this. 
My generalised view of "the true" antidoping attitudes in Italy:
Riders: They no longer talk open mouthed about it (only to their best friend). Most of them still consider doping as "legal" part of the game.
Team staff: Are no longer actively promoting it, but have chosen to close their eyes, even when they know their riders are doing it.
Doping teachers: A certain group of riders/staff/doctors still active in the sport, who continue to educate in doping use?
Police: Investigators are in fact doing a very good job to discover some of the big doping affairs.
CONI: Have become less corrupt, and started to put all the "clear cases" for trial. Are however still too linient in the "Oil For Drug" case.
FCI: Prefer to cover up all doping cases, and still have issues with a corrupt testing system. Only acts when they get "forced" to do it.
Politicians: Unfortunatly they most often still support doped athletes and guilty doctors. They still accept it as "secret part" of the sport.
Judges: Are still under influence of Politicians. So most often they drag out the cases for years, in order to let the guilty go free.
I often get the picture, that we only have Italian Police and CONI on the right side in the antidoping fight. While the dark side still consists of both riders, team staff, "doping teachers", FCI and politicians (who own the judges). In my opinion the situation is however still a lot better in Italy compared to Spain.
A little extra note about the future:
To get a fast improvement of the situation in both Italy and Spain, I believe we need a change in culture from the inside of Cycling. Such a change can not be implemented by just preaching moralistic words and voting for an antidoping leglislation in all countries. The change of culture could however be kickstarted, if UCI is making it almost impossible to continue the doping use, by launching a new fail proof test system and some new effective antidoping procedures. Something I have in mind myself could be:
1) Remove the national protection regime, by selecting FCI to test and judge all German riders, while BDR judge all Italian riders, and so on.
2) Requiere that riders can only visit a doctor with a UCI license, and let the doctors license depend on several unannounced audits.
3) UCI could hire their own police task force group, where riders/ex-riders can submit anonymous tips.
4) Introduce "health suspension" on 14 days each time a rider submit a suspectfull blood sample.
5) Expand the unannounced testing program from UCI to cover all riders (and have WADA being responsible for making the test job).
If all the proposals above was implemented (or something similair), most riders would get discouraged to continue living in a doping culture. The risk would be too high. And if the new initiatives are implemented equal in all countries, there would also be a general understanding between the riders, that a new culture and some new game rules have been launched. I hope for that scenario to happen, but fear Cycling is not yet ready to move that fast in all of the countries. On October 23, UCI will launch some new proposals for 2008. I look forward to learn how long they are ready to go. 
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Edited by - KD teammate on 12/10/2007 21:05:31 |
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bikebye
Stagiaire
Italy
8 Posts |
Posted - 15/10/2007 : 05:37:01
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just a remark:
the Judges has been very active and "supporting" for the anti-doping cause. The Police always made their raids based on kick-off from Judiciary.
Obviously the trials last very long and there is very little cooperation from CONI/FCI.
for the future:
1) Wipe out all the Team Manager who were involved in Doping cases
2) If a rider is found positive, also the Team Manager is suspended. This is the normal principle of responsibility in managing a company: the "legal representative" must make sure that his employees respects the regulations and must respond on his own about lack of control on his subordinates .. Why this principle that is valid for all the business world is not valid in "professional sport" ????
3) Have 3 samples (rather than 2); if a rider is negative, the B sample will be tested anyway 3 years later, after improvement on the doping methods.
Final remark:
I hope that sooner or later all the truth will come out about the amateur teams managed by Locatelli, Bombini, Maggioni, Piscina AND the Pro Team with Stanga, Ferretti and Boifava, including their descendants (Corti, Martinelli, etc)
Also sooner or later Daniele Pontoni should be caught and stop a career based on systematic doping.
And please give your moral support to a rider like Andrea Noe': he is 38 and run during all the period of massive doping. His career has been a regular progression since he was 17, without "hat tricks". |
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fluke
Hors Categorie
2018 Posts |
Posted - 15/10/2007 : 06:24:33
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quote:
Originally posted by bikebye
just a remark:
1) Wipe out all the Team Manager who were involved in Doping cases
2) If a rider is found positive, also the Team Manager is suspended.
Agree that some consequences must be drawn towards the team when a doping case is revealed, but it is not fair to let sanctions be directed toward the team manager, as he automatically not is a bad person in the doping case.
I think that the system that T-mobile respected by staying out of races for the rest of the season after several doping cases is good. |
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bikebye
Stagiaire
Italy
8 Posts |
Posted - 15/10/2007 : 09:27:57
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in normal business world ...
you are managing director, and your Safety officer neglects his job and create some safety hazard for the community ...
HE and YOU will go under trial and be punished ... |
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KD teammate
Hors Categorie
Denmark
5683 Posts |
Posted - 15/10/2007 : 13:00:02
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I agree with you bikebye, that we should demand greater responsibility and punishment of the team managers, when a team gets several of their riders caught of doping. I can also follow the logic, that certain teachers and networks are today behind the doping problem, and that if we destroy this network, it will be the key to solve the problem.
After Tour de France, there was in fact a public statement from Riis, where he blamed Rabobank management for not having sufficient control regarding Rasmussen. He stated that a "Rasmussen" case could never happen at Team CSC, simply because at this team the staff takes responsibility to secure their riders are clean. This is done with a whereabout reportingsystem without loopholes, staff being in personal contact with riders, an independent advanced antidoping test program, and a strong antidoping culture amoung the riders. Therefor Riis actualy blamed Rabobank management more than he blamed Rasmussen in this whereabout case.
So Riis are also sharing the same thoughts, that team management shall take their part of the responsibility in doping cases. Talking about taking responsibility, this can be done in many ways. We dont always have to think about punishing/removing the managers. Perhaps its better to try forcing them to change their behaviour in any possible way. The auto-suspension rule is such a remedy. They face the threath that "4 strikes and your out of the ProTour". So for the first time in history, this rule now creates internal interest amoung all managers, to do something activly, in order to limit the number of positive doping cases. I am certainly not claimining this rule is enough, or without any loopholes (in example I am a bit annoyed, that teams like Astana and Phonak immedeatly get access to continue in the ProTour, by just hirering a new manager). But my point is, that the auto-suspension rule is after all something leading the teams in the right direction, and I would like to see more of that kind of "enforcing" rules to regulate the antidoping behaviour of the teams. 
To improve testing methods, by introducing "retro-active" testing (B-samples tested many years later, when certain test methods are ready) and/or the monitoring of fluctuations in blood values by introducing tempoary "health suspensions" each time a rider submits suspective values, are obviously also very important. But its never enough to only look on the testing regime. The doping problem has to been attacked from all possible angles if we want a significant change. So we also have to tighten up with new measures and procedures to regulate the behaviour of doctors, managers, teams and even sponsors. In example UCI/WADA could prohibit sponsors to pay athletes a personal bonus each time they make a world record or huge win (because this bonus system animates the use of doping).
Let's return for a moment to our recent focus on problems in Italy in the 90s. These managers below was mentioned as suspectfull:
Amateur teams:
Locatelli
Bombini
Maggioni (later general manager for Vini Caldirola~Tacconi in 1999-2004)
Piscina
Pro teams (after 1998):
Stanga: Polti (1999+2000) and Colpack~De Nardi~Domina Vacanze~Milram (2002-2007)
Ferretti: Fassa Bortolo (2000-2005)
Boifava: Riso Scotti~Amiga Chips (1999+2000), Vini Caldirola~Tacconi (01+02), Mecatone Uno (03), Androni Giocattoli (05+06), LPR (2007)
Corti: Saeco (1999-2004), Lampre (2005), Barloworld (2006+2007)
Martinelli: Mercatone Uno (1999-2001), Saeco (2002-2004), Lampre (2005-2007)
Since I am a little curious, I have to ask you 2 questions bikebye. First of all you mentioned you quit working in Cycling in the late 90s, but do you still have friendly contacts to some of the people/riders working at the current professional teams in Italy? The reason for this question is of course, that its quiet interesting for us to know if you also have some recent "inside" stories, that confirms the theory, that your names above indeed are still supporting the old "doping regime". Or is it only a theory?
My second question is about Daniele Pontoni. I know he was the best cycling cross racer in Italy from 1989-2005, and also busted as being a client of Michele Ferrari after the raid of his office in 1998. But can you give some more info about what role he has been playing in the Italian doping history, and what role he plays today?
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Edited by - KD teammate on 15/10/2007 13:52:19 |
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bikebye
Stagiaire
Italy
8 Posts |
Posted - 16/10/2007 : 05:39:31
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the Rabobank case is a good example of the most recent attitude of many Team. They can say hide their head in the sand and just be ready to drop the rider if some mess comes out.
Probably the Rabo Bank should make the gift of a mobile phone to the Team Manager and riders.... so they can keep touch ...
in one way of the other, the Team Mangers and Team itself must take responsibility to check out their employee and having an external audit. So the same rules that applies for all other business activities should apply for Pro Sports:
- Legal responsibility of the Management
- External Audit of the accounts by a third party auditor ==> become a audited medical/doping control by a certified third party agency
About your specific questions:
I quit cycling in 99 and lost contact with that environment.
I can afford to make these observation because basically all the riders of my generation lived in the "hi rise" of doping and they are now retiring. So I have followed personally and directly the career of all those now in their 30s/early 40s.
All my conclusions are drawn observing all the span of their careers since they were perhaps 14 until their retirement.
The team and Team managers that I mentioned were very much embedded of the doping culture of late 80s and 90s.
Most of them are still around (and it is a pity for the sport), who knows if the old habits have given way to a different approach ...
About Daniele Pontoni: I just mentioned his case because it was a good example on how to build a whole career on doping.
Daniele was a mid-level amateur rider and he had already quit cycling in the mid 80s because of lack of results.
His comeback was not an immediate crack, but after a while he become unstoppable ... he won the Italian title for 15 years in a row...
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Green Machine
Hors Categorie
Sweden
2342 Posts |
Posted - 16/10/2007 : 08:39:24
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| I consider it curious that our dear "sottas" has not reappeared on this forum... |
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Vicky
Neo Pro
61 Posts |
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KD teammate
Hors Categorie
Denmark
5683 Posts |
Posted - 16/10/2007 : 19:10:02
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Thanks bikebye, for all your answers and interesting stories. All posts in this topic, contributes to our understanding and knowledge of the doping problem. So its always great when new contributions are posted. If you have more to come, then please go ahead.
Regarding the story about the Swiss pharmacy, then its also an interesting piece of information. In most of the doping cases, there has always been a pharmacy behind as the main supplier of doping products. I think the problem is, that each time a demand is born, there will always be a supply from somewhere. Removing one supplier will never solve the problem. Another supplier will quickly move in. Only solution is to kill the demand. |
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bikebye
Stagiaire
Italy
8 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2007 : 07:36:56
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Just a small note about the pharmacies..
up to now, there is not a uniform classification of the medical product among Europe: some products can be classified as "regulated/restricted" use in one country and being OTC in another country.
Back in the old times, it was common for Italian riders to stock on products while going in Switzerland or Belgium, where the regulation is more liberal about dispensing medecines |
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CrossRacer
National Champion
USA
322 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2007 : 20:22:27
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| UCI announced that in 2008 they want to start creating "biological passports" for riders. This will be a profile for comparing doping test results to catch riders who use "sophisticated" doping techniques. |
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Doping affairs in Cycling since 1980
